Tag Archives: Eternal Death

Hell, Truth About the Deceased, What is God Like?

Halloween and Evil: Are the Wicked Given Eternal Life in Hell?

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“A young mother discovered that her little boy had lied to her. Utterly shocked and desperate to correct his wayward behavior, she sat him down and said to him, ‘Listen-you can’t lie to Mommy! If you do that again, a big tall man with red eyes and horns (will) come and take you away. He’ll make you work for a hundred years in the coal mines just for telling one little lie!’ The look on the boy’s face told the mother that he was listening carefully. Encouraged that she was getting through to him, she said, ‘Now you’ll never lie to Mommy again, will you.’

He thought for a moment, then blurted out, ‘No ma’am, I wouldn’t dare-’cause you tell them better than id do!”-From the book, Draining the Styx-Boonstra p. 90

Many churches and pastors have taken the scare-tactic to “soul-winning.” Like this mother, they picture a place so bad that people will accept Jesus out of fear rather than repentance and love. This place is called hell, where the fallen and wicked will be tortured in flames for eternity.

Life Eternal is for the Saved Only

Eternity for the saved begins when Jesus returns. Perhaps the clearest single passage in the Bible to confirm this is found in Paul’s writing in 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-18

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

We are to comfort ourselves about those who have died in Christ this way: Jesus will return, and those who are alive then and those who died “in Christ” will gather around Jesus in the air for the first time. Here is where eternity begins for the saved. What a reunion day that will be!

Jesus confirmed the importance of His return in the following words. His words, like Paul’s, give comfort to those who fear death or have lost loved ones to the enemy of death.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

John 14: 1-3

Notice what these verses do not say. They do not say that eternity for the saved begins at death. It begins at the return of Christ. It is because He has the keys to the grave and death (Rev. 1: 18) that we can be resurrected from decayed bodies, perhaps that are dust, to receive immortality and new bodies. Paul describes the importance of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. 

1 Corinthians 15: 41-44

Without our resurrection, there is no immortality; there is no heaven. All those who have “fallen asleep” are lost, and we have no hope or comfort for those who have died and for ourselves. Paul described it this way:

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. …For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have allen asleep in Christ have perished.

1 Corinthians 15: 13-14, 17-18

The resureection of Christ demonstrates God’s plan to resurrect the saved for eternity. While death is an enemy, Jesus and the Bible describe this period between the grave and the second coming of Christ as a unconscience sleep. When He returns after a nano-second nap, the saved of all ages will meet Jesus in the air after receiving immortal incorruptuible bodies. Eternity will begin for His people.

Author-Eddie Armstrong

But What About the Lost?

Did you notice in the passages above that there is no mention of the resurrection of the wicked and the lost? What happens to them? Modern theology has these people burning in hell after they die or at a later time, e.g., after the White Throne Judgement. But is that what the Bible teaches?

Unfortunately, traditions absorbed from pagan philosophers have created a God that is sadistic that His anger against the wicked is so great that it is never satisfied. A God of mercy and love who loses it and shows absolutely no mercy for those screaming for death to escape the licks of flames on their flesh.

“…Consider a nineteenth-century account of the fate of the wicked, which a children’s author named John Furniss (no pun intended-that was his name!) wrote to scare children into behaving.

Come into this room. You see it is very small. But see, in the midst of it, there is a girl, perhaps about eighteen years old. What a terrible dress she has on–On her head, she wears a bonnet of fire. It is pressed down close all over her head; it burns into the skin; it scorches the bone of the skull and makes it smoke. The red hot fiery heat goes into the brain and melts it…There she will stand forever, burning and scorched! She counts with her fingers the moments as they pass away slowly, for each moment seems to her like a hundred years. As she counts the moments, she remembers that she will have to count them forever and ever.

Look into this little prison. In the middle of it, there is a boy, a young man. He is silent; despair is on him. He stands straight up. His eyes are burning like two burning coals. Two long flames come out of his ears. His breathing is difficult. Sometimes he opens his mouth, and a breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen! There is a sound just like that of a kettle boiling! It is really a kettle boiling? No; then what is it? The blood is boiling in the scalded veins of that boy. The brain is boiling and bubbling in the head. The marrow is boiling in these bones. Ask him why he is thus tormented. His answer is that when he was alive, his blood boiled to do very wicked things.” Rev. J. Furnis, Tracts for Spiritual Reading (New York – P.J Kenedy, 1877, page 19

Draining the Styx-Boonstra p. 91 and 92

This tract by Rev. Furniss is often quoted by atheists as an argument for throwing out Christianity. When I was 8 years old, attending Vacation Bible School along with other children, an elder of the church described hell in this same manner to all of us boys and girls. He was prepping us for the Sunday Service. He wanted us to come forward at the altar call and be baptized…trophies for him and the vacation Bible School program. This was the beginning of my atheistic beliefs. But, praise God, I discovered the love, mercy, and compassion of the God who loved me so much that He sent His Son to die for me so I could have eternal life. For my testimony, start here:

The Biblical Fate of the Lost

There is no story in the Bible like Rev. Furniss’s. Some will point to the Rich Man and Lazarus as proof that the lost are tortured in a place that burns forever, But in this parable, Jesus takes the pagan beliefs that had infiltrated Jewish theology to make his point which is at the end of the parable. The point of the parable was about the resurrection and belief in Jesus. It was not a description of a place of torture. To learn more about this parable, click on this link regarding the Rich Man and Lazarus: Lord Teach Me About Hell-Part 1 (Rich Man & Lazarus) – Answers From Scripture – A Jesus Journey (answersfromscriptureonline.com)

The fate of the lost has always been eternal death. In that famous verse that everyone can quote, Jesus tells us that the fate of the lost is that they “perish” If their fate were eternal life in burning flames, we would have to rewrite it:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not live for eternity in hell- a burning place of firey torture

The operative word here is “perish.” It is different from the death that all must experience. It is eternal.

The Lost Have A Resurrection Too!

Jesus taught there were two resurrections:

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5: 28-29

These two resurrections are confirmed by the Apostle John in Revelation. John also gives more detail about the vision given to him of the end times:

“But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection. Over such, the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

Revelation 20: 5-6

It is very easy to see from these passages the two resurrections are separated by one thousand years. The first resurrection occurs when Jesus comes. This was described above in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15: 50-55. This is the starting point for the one thousand years of the honeymoon of the bride (church) and the groom (Jesus). But the rest of the dead don’t come alive until one thousand years have passed.

The lost are resurrected. Satan gathers them together to attack the Holy City coming down out of heaven. This Holy City was where Jesus and the saints were in heaven for one thousand years. The lost of all ages are convinced by Satan to attack the heavenly city, and then God sends fire out of heaven, and this fire devours them.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 

Revelation 20: 7-9

Thus all the enemies of God are forever turned to ashes. Nothing left of them, they are devoured! And never shall they ever be any more. This is the way a merciful God deals with those who want no part of Him. Their reward was living on earth and enjoying their 70 or so years. They don’t receive eternal life, as do the saved.

For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4: 1

Satan shares the same fate after watching his people destroyed. He is saved for last:

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14


“You (Satan) defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. Ezekiel 28:18 (See entire chapter for context)

If you want more information on confusing passages that seem to support eternal life in hell for the lost vs. what the Bible teaches about eternal death, click here for more information: The Fate of The Lost-Difficult Verses.

The Fate of The Lost (Part 3)-Difficult Verses – Answers From Scripture – A Jesus Journey (answersfromscriptureonline.com)

My friends, let us lift up Jesus as the only source of eternal life and pray for those in our circle of friends and family who can be saved from eternal death. This is scary enough.

Hell, What is God Like?

The Bible’s teaching on the Fate of the lost (Part 1)

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The Rich Man and Lazarus

Luke 16: 19-31 (NIV)

 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.  At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores  and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.  So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Much argument has taken place over whether the words of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 were intended to be understood literally or as a parable. Some Christians feel that in this story, Jesus was offering His hearers a glimpse of what existence in the afterlife is like.

Others, citing numerous passages of Scripture that seem to contradict the portrayal of heaven and hell contained in this passage, feel that Jesus was teaching an altogether different kind of lesson. Unfortunately, many modern religious teachers have isolated the story from its original context and used it as a device for scaring people. Religious “conversions” resulting from a fear of hell as it is depicted in this passage have indeed occurred, but are based on a foundation sorely in need of the strength that comes only from a genuine appreciation of God’s character and a proper understanding of Scripture. To begin this study, we’ll take a closer look at just what a parable really is, and then examine the setting in which Jesus told this story. Perhaps then we will better understand what lessons there are for us in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

The Random House College Dictionary describes a parable as “a short, allegorical story designed to convey a truth or moral lesson.” Cruden’s Complete Concordance further expands this concept, saying that parables in the Bible were used “more generally than elsewhere.” We know that the Bible writers used situations both imaginary—as in the trees asking the bramble to be king over them (Judges 9:8-15)—and realistic in parables. Whatever form the parable took, it was only a vehicle for the moral lesson being taught.

Jesus recognized the value of parables in teaching the people. He desired to stimulate their deepest thought and contemplation, and He knew that if He spoke too literally, certain of His hearers would quickly forget His words. Not only that, but others, for whom certain of His parables contained stern rebuke, would be so angered by straight speaking that they would attempt to silence Him by violence. Wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove, Jesus recalled the words of Isaiah 6:9 and told His disciples,

“Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.”

Luke 8:10.

Cruden’s Concordance explains: “Our Saviour in the gospels often speaks to the people in parables. He made use of them to veil the truth from those who were not willing to see it. Those who really desired to know would not rest till they had found out the meaning.”

It was Jesus custom to talk to the people with parables.

It is appropriate here to ask to whom Jesus was speaking in Luke 16:19-31. Which category of people was He dealing with? The last verse before Jesus’ voice begins in this passage tells us.

  “And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.” 

Luke 16: 14

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, a class of men who were notorious all through the Gospels for their refusal to deal honestly with Him and the truths He taught.

We can be sure that of all the people Jesus taught, none were handled more guardedly than the wily Pharisees. They dealt in deception and subterfuge, but Jesus dealt with them wisely and truthfully. The safest way for Him to do this was by parable and allegory. Evidence that they did not understand many of His teachings can be found in Jesus’ prayer:

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hath revealed them unto babes.”

Luke 10:21,

Mark 4:33, 34 clearly shows that Jesus’ lessons were almost invariably couched in parables:

“And with many such parables spake he the word unto them: as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them; and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.”

Mark 4: 33, 34

The rich man and Lazarus is at the end of a long list of parables that start in Luke chapter 14:7 before he turns to the disciples and begins to speak to them plainly.

Now we are ready to examine the story of the rich man and Lazarus itself, and try to ascertain the real message Jesus was seeking to convey through it.

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.”

Luke 16:19-21.

Who was the symbolic rich man? The Jews had been blessed above measure by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind. They had received

“the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.”

Romans 9:4.

Only a Jew would pray to “Father Abraham,” as we find the rich man doing later in the story. The Jewish nation was clearly represented by this character.

By contrast, Lazarus symbolized all those people in spiritual poverty—the Gentiles—with whom the Israelites were to share their heritage. The words of Isaiah were well known to the Jews.

“I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Isaiah 49:6.

Unfortunately, the Jews had not shared their spiritual wealth with the Gentiles at all. Instead, they considered them as “dogs” that would have to be satisfied with the spiritual crumbs falling from their masters’ tables. The metaphor was known. Jesus had used it before in testing the faith of the Canaanite woman.

“It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” She responded accordingly: “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ tables.”

Matthew 15:26, 27.

The rich Jews had hoarded the truth, and in so doing, they had corrupted themselves. Only moments before relating this parable, Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees for their spiritual conceit.

“Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”

Luke 16:15.

What was to be the result of this terrible conceit?

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

Luke 16:22-26.

The Jews had enjoyed “the good life” while on earth but had done nothing to bless or enrich their neighbors. No further reward was due.

“Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.”

Luke 6:24, 25.

Conversely, the poor in spirit, symbolized by Lazarus, would inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Gentiles who hungered and thirsted after righteousness would be filled. The “dogs” and sinners, so despised by the self-righteous Pharisees, would enter heaven before they would.

“Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.”

Matthew 21:31.

The parable concludes with the rich man begging for his brethren to be warned against sharing his fate. Asking Abraham to send Lazarus on this mission, he alleges

“if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.” Abraham replies,

Luke 16:30.

“If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Verse 31.

Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of “Moses and the prophets.”

The miracle of raising the real-life Lazarus from the dead soon afterward confirmed the accuracy of Jesus’ conclusion. One did rise from the dead, yet the brothers of the “rich man” did not repent. In fact, the Pharisees even plotted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection. His very life was a reminder to them of their own hypocrisy.

Today many Christians believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a historical account of two individuals’ literal experiences in the afterlife. Based on this belief, some people teach that those who are consigned to the fiery torments of hell will never stop burning throughout all eternity. As with the parable of the trees and the bramble (Judges 9:8-15), however, serious problems arise with a literal interpretation of the story elements.

Can we believe that all the saints are even now gathered in Abraham’s bosom? If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? And if there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? Perhaps more disturbing, how could the saints enjoy the comforts of heaven while enduring the cries of the wicked being tormented?

Another dilemma that arises with a literal interpretation of this story could be called “the mystery of the empty graves.” If this is taken literally, apparently neither of the two leading characters spent very long in the grave—both being whisked away rather quickly to their respective places of reward. Their bodies obviously came along, for we find the rich man lifting up his eyes, and desiring to have his tongue cooled by a drop of water from the finger of Lazarus who was resting, as we have seen, in Abraham’s bosom. Enough graves have been exhumed in recent years to know that the bodies of the deceased are carried neither to heaven or hell after burial. They finally turn to dust and await the resurrection.

From these few examples, we begin to see that in this parable, Jesus was not trying to explain the physical realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their assigned responsibility. As stewards of the special message of truth, they utterly failed to share it with the Gentiles, who were eager to hear it. In fact, the entire chapter of Luke 16 is devoted to the subject of stewardship.

Beginning in verse one, Christ gave another parable about stewardship of money or property. “There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.” After dealing with the principle of being entrusted with material goods, Jesus opened up the issue of being entrusted with the truth. By the parable of another rich man, He graphically illustrated how they had proven just as unfaithful with spiritual riches as the steward had been unfaithful with physical wealth.

To attempt to stretch the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to cover the doctrine of hellfire is to miss the point Jesus intended to convey. The Bible speaks with unmistakable clarity on the subject of hell in many other places. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the wicked will continue to suffer in the fires of hell through the ceaseless ages of eternity. Rather, they will be utterly destroyed. Jesus never would have compromised the integrity of the Holy Scriptures by teaching a doctrine contrary to its own overwhelming testimony on the subject.

The truth about hell may be ascertained by examining even a few of the many Bible texts that speak directly on the subject. Before examining these, however, we must remember that

“the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.”

Romans 6:23.

There are only two alternatives for every soul. Those who accept Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice will live forever; those who do not accept Jesus will die. If the wicked suffered without end, eternal life—however painful—would be theirs. But we know that eternal life is available only to those who accept Jesus.

Consider these clear texts of Scripture that speak of the reward of the wicked:

“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

Psalm 37:20.

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Malachi 4:1.

“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:3.

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Matthew 10:28.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

2 Peter 3:10.

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8.

Many other texts could be cited, but these clearly illustrate that the ultimate fate of the wicked is death. Notice that the Scriptures choose the strongest possible words to describe the complete annihilation of the wicked. In no way should these clear words be misunderstood by one who honestly desires to know truth. There is a fire reserved for the wicked, but a fire so hot it will utterly destroy all who are engulfed by it. When the fire has done its work, it will go out. Eternally burning fire is not taught anywhere in the Bible—not even in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. (Some people have wondered what the expression “for ever” means in the usage of Revelation 20:10. Other similar passages demonstrate this merely to mean as long as a person lives. See Exodus 21:6; 1 Samuel 1:22; Jonah 2:6, etc. Also, the expression “eternal fire” may be understood in terms of consequences rather than duration, as in the example of Sodom and Gomorrha in Jude 7).

(We will talk more about this next time.)

It would be tragic to miss the actual point of the parable by removing it from the setting in which Jesus gave it. Let’s accept the lesson He was trying to teach and apply it to our own lives. Are we doing all we can to spread the message of salvation to others? Do we have a genuine love for those around us, and have we invited them to share our spiritual inheritance? If we hoard our riches, like the Jews of old, we will become self-righteous and corrupt. In contrast, by active, loving service, our relationship with Christ as well as with others will become stronger and more meaningful.

Let us not make scary stories the basis of our Christian experience. Instead, let us understand that

“God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:16.

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After all of this, the pivotal question must be asked,

Do you know God enough to know that He is a God of mercy and not a God who tortures his creation for rejecting Jesus? …even though He  gave man the freedom to choose.

Choose this day whom you will follow.

Joshua 24:15

Sin comes with its own penalty….eternal and non-ending death. This is in itself mercy. The sinner gives in to the carnal nature and chooses a life of pleasurable sin and its ultimate penalty of death rather than a born-again life of service in Christ that brings satisfaction and real joy.  The rebel to God’s Spirit will one day cease to exist in the lake of fire.  They choose this world and its temporary pleasures rather than Jesus and His eternal riches of life and discovery.

It is not what your choose, but rather who.  If you choose Jesus, then eternal life is yours.  Will you choose Him today?

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Deuteronomy 30:19

Much thanks to Doug Batchelor with Amazing Facts